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Episode 111: We Agnostics North Bay

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This episode contains a dialog with Lena R. from the We Agnostics Group in North Bay, Ontario. Lena discusses her expertise of working together with her District to approve a request to add the “secular” category for her group on the Space assembly listing. After considering Lena’s arguments, the District voted unanimously to approve the group’s request. That is an uplifting story about one group’s involvement with their native AA group and Common Service. 

Transcript

00:00 John S: That is episode 111 of AA Beyond Perception, the Podcast.

[music]

00:13 John S: At this time we’ll meet Lena R from the We Agnostics Group in North Bay, Ontario. Lena’s group just lately gained the unanimous approval from her District so as to add the secular category by her assembly itemizing on the Area web site. It’s an fascinating story and I feel it’s one worthy of preserving for history. So with out additional ado, Lena R from We Agnostics Group, North Bay, Ontario.

00:48 John S: How are you doing, Lena?

00:49 Lena R: Oh, I’m fabulous, thanks, how are you?

00:51 John S: I’m doing nice. I feel you might have an fascinating and helpful story about the way you and your group worked together with your District and your Area to overcome some obstacles that you simply have been originally dealing with with having the secular designation listed on your meeting listing and I assumed it will be nice to protect this story for the sake of history, but in addition to help others who could be dealing with comparable situations. So would you like to speak about that in the present day?

01:13 Lena R: Oh, definitely.

01:14 John S: Let’s begin by speaking about you. Are you able to inform me somewhat bit about your self and about your first AA assembly and what was happening in your life on the time?

01:23 Lena R: Positive, positive, yeah, nicely, so I began… Principally, my drawback with alcohol and medicines started in Toronto and things have been actually going off the rails for me, however I all the time knew that I was not even considering AA because of the God stuff, nevertheless it simply so happened that one time I was having that conversation with someone they usually had heard of Secular AA in Toronto and as quickly as I heard that my mindset modified from like, “Oh, I assume I’ll simply hold taking place the rabbit gap of consuming to, okay, perhaps there’s some hope for me right here,” so I searched it up on-line and in Toronto on the time, that is about perhaps four or 5 years in the past, there was a very healthy number of secular meetings there, there was about I feel six or seven every week, so it took me a while to get to my first one but ultimately I did.

02:19 Lena R: I went to the Tuesday night time group at St. Clair Avenue and for sure my first assembly was a little bit of an emotional mess, I feel it is for lots of us, but I keep in mind leaving the assembly with my 24-hour chip in my hand and just feeling like, “Oh, there’s an opportunity for me right here.” I used to be really greedy on to something. Sadly it wasn’t all uphill from there, I still had a couple extra relapses to go through, and it’s actually arduous to… It was arduous for me to make it in Toronto, because I didn’t have family. All the individuals I used to be staying with individuals I was… Individuals I used to be with had poisonous relationships with, for instance, and it was really onerous to make ends meet, so I simply had so much to worry about.

03:06 Lena R: So, after struggling for in all probability a few yr there in Toronto going to meetings, learning about the program but still struggling, I made a decision to move to North Bay as a result of that’s the place my mom is, so I had the chance to not work for a while, just go to rehab and just give attention to myself. So there’s a number of privilege in that sense for me in getting sober, but anyway, so.

03:32 John S: I feel that’s fascinating that you would not go to AA if it weren’t for a secular assembly.

03:39 Lena R: Sure, absolutely. Oh, I’m just… I’m actually hard-headed and I know what I consider. I’ve been an atheist all my life, so I was so glad that was obtainable to me.

03:51 John S: Nicely, I discover the identical factor in our group. I might say now, I’d say over half of the folks that go to conferences at our group haven’t even been to a meeting with prayers and so forth. They wouldn’t even go to AA if they didn’t have this chance, so that’s type of fascinating.

04:09 Lena R: Yeah, absolutely.

04:11 John S: How did your group We Agnostics get started in North Bay? Did you play an element in that or was it already going if you arrived in North Bay?

04:18 Lena R: Yeah, so once I came back to North Bay, unfortunately there was solely traditional meetings, in order that was my first rodeo with the normal conferences, as a result of I needed to go, I needed to seek out my individuals in North Bay and so I was in all probability attending these for a few yr, but in fact I did encounter numerous issues with that. The worst for me was continuously being pulled apart after the assembly, someone like, “Oh, can I speak to you?” They usually’d inform me about God and be like, “I was an atheist once I came into this system too,” however ultimately I had pretty much had sufficient. I additionally had another adverse experiences in the program and I just thought it was time for me to hold the message as I had acquired it. So starting it up, simply the logistics of getting a meeting area and all that stuff was principally achieved simply by me.

05:10 Lena R: Finding a location was fascinating because obviously we don’t need to have it in a church and in North Bay your options are more restricted than in Toronto, I might say. We truly had one United Church that was prepared to host us however thankfully we have been truly capable of get to, I assume, enter an agreement or no matter with an artwork gallery. So we started assembly, yeah, on the White Water gallery totally free, they’re very beneficiant. And yeah, and so I began that assembly, I think about two years in the past and thankfully in a short time we picked up a few key players who do service for the group and yeah, so now we’ve a cheerful little group two years later.

05:54 John S: That’s great and at your group you learn a secular model of the steps like they do in Toronto?

06:02 Lena R: Sure, precisely.

06:03 John S: Are they steps that your group created for themselves or is it that you simply tailored the Toronto steps?

06:09 Lena R: We received them off of… I feel, I can never keep in mind the identify of the web site however I feel the web site is AA Beyond Belief, until I’m simply channeling your podcast right now, yeah.

06:19 John S: In all probability received it from AA Agnostica. They have a… We link to them from AA Beyond Perception, yeah.

06:26 Lena R: Proper, yeah, so I simply took the steps right off of there, and I’m pretty positive that’s the same one which they use on the Tuesday night time group in Toronto.

06:32 John S: So I assume once you did that, did you’ve got any… If you started your group and you have been using these various steps, did you will have any push back in any respect from the normal AA individuals, the District, the Space?

06:44 Lena R: I mean, individuals undoubtedly were not thrilled about our existence. [chuckle] Nevertheless it was principally at first, extra of just a passive-aggressive factor, because they couldn’t cease us from forming the group. The actual controversy began coming along once we started asking for issues. [chuckle] Like once we first requested to be listed on the assembly cards. We didn’t have a lot of a discussion about it at the time, but there was very suspicious delays in getting us listed on on the meeting cards. That they had printed two new batches of meeting cards. They’d be like, “Oh, sorry, we forgot.” [chuckle] But anyway, that was nonetheless just about effective, nevertheless it wasn’t till lately once I emailed the Space website and requested them if they might record us with a secular category on their web site, they have categories for an LGBTQ assembly and stuff like that. So I assumed it was more than applicable. However then they have been like, “Oh, nicely, we’re going to have to speak about that on the Area assembly.” And it turned this entire factor, because I despatched that request on Might seventh of 2018. So there was numerous delays with it. Then they stated District would have to achieve extra info and stuff like that.

08:04 Lena R: And finally, what ended up occurring a couple of months ago was then they began questioning our use of the steps, they came in to our enterprise assembly, apparently to info collect about why we might ever need this class and at the similar time, they started saying like, “Properly, you recognize, how did that human rights grievance go in Toronto? We’d like more info, we don’t really know if you should use various steps.” So we undoubtedly interpreted that nearly like a menace, in case you would have stored quiet we might have let have your steps, but that’s what we obtained for being rabble-rousers.

08:37 John S: And your Area is it’s not the identical Space as Toronto’s in, is that proper?

08:45 Lena R: Yes, yeah.

08:46 John S: because I used to be questioning… So you have been in all probability the only secular group in your Area?

08:53 Lena R: Yeah, so we’re in Area 84, which encompasses North Bay, Sudbury and surrounding Area. And, yeah, as far as I do know, this is the primary time that it has come up at that degree.

09:03 John S: Okay, you understand, that’s actually fascinating. This is one thing that I haven’t truly broached with our Space or District, or even our inter-group, they all record conferences here. At one time we asked our central office if they might put an agnostic atheist at the time, a designation for our group they usually stated, “Oh, this isn’t an excellent time, however why don’t you come back and ask us later?” And it looks like there’s by no means really been a good time, and we haven’t actually been pushing it that tough. I have not but asked our Space to try this, but one in every of our conferences is known as the Secular AA speaker meeting, they usually record it that approach, so I don’t assume they have an issue with the phrase secular. But what sort of obstacles have been you given if you have been asking for that designation they usually weren’t wanting to try this?

09:53 Lena R: I’d love to get into this as a result of, yeah, that they had a whole lot of arguments that I just thought have been so foolish. Amongst them, they have been suggesting that folks won’t perceive the word “secular,” which for me is totally irrelevant because it doesn’t change the significance of the word. And because the secular AA group turns into no more widespread however more recognized and exists more, increasingly individuals are going to know the word, and naturally, any person who’s an agnostic or atheist is extra more likely to know the phrase secular, or they will Google it, or we’ve got dictionaries. [laughter] There’s options.

10:31 John S: Yeah.

10:31 Lena R: And one other factor, too, is that they had… This one man came to our assembly and he was like, “Have you ever heard of the Washingtonians?” And I hadn’t and I was actually annoyed as a result of he sort of used it as a chance to make me appear to be I didn’t know enough about AA. Anyway, I began wanting into it, and the Washingtonians, they advocated for the abolition of slavery and prohibition, alongside their work with alcoholism. And so far as I perceive, I feel that they did nice work as nicely, but to match this example to the Washingtonians and to say that we’re going to be doomed is to me utterly ridiculous.

11:10 John S: Yeah.

11:11 Lena R: And then one other thing that came up… Properly, there’s two more. The first thing is that they have been involved that using this class can be divisive. And I simply stored hammering house the purpose that this isn’t what makes AA divisive, traditional AA is already divisive and that’s why these secular teams maintain popping up. And the final argument was that folks might guess we have been secular, based mostly on the identify, which I feel is completely unfair because until you’re conversant in the Massive Guide… We as We Agnostics simply to tie in to the Huge E-book and because I feel it’s like a standard secular AA identify, I assume, but, you already know, until you’re acquainted with the Massive Ebook, you’re not going to know. We now have one other group in our Space referred to as Came To Consider, and I used to assume perhaps that was a secular group. How do we all know this distinction? And the onus shouldn’t be on us and each group that follows to make it apparent and there’s like two more titles…

12:09 John S: That’s right. That’s proper, we shouldn’t really have to try this. And the We Agnostics identify doesn’t necessarily imply it’s secular because there was one guy who got here to our group however he thought it was only a group that was excited concerning the chapter, We Agnostics. [laughter] And then I truly was at the Florida State Convention as soon as they usually had a seminar or no matter, a meeting referred to as We Agnostics, and I assumed, “Oh, this is actually fascinating. This is going to be a secular assembly.” And I went there, and no, it was all concerning the chapter We Agnostics and how great it was. [chuckle]

12:45 Lena R: Oh, no.

[laughter]

12:47 John S: It doesn’t essentially… The identify, however I feel that in all probability when groups began name themselves We Agnostics it was type of a code word to let individuals comprehend it was a non-religious meeting. What I find funny concerning the word secular and what I feel that folks would object to is that it will suggest that their conferences aren’t secular however, you recognize, that by no means seems to hassle them. It’s like they admit, “Yeah, we’re not, we’re not secular at all.”

13:14 Lena R: Yeah, completely. Nicely, even in the human rights grievance in Toronto, how the Higher Toronto Space Intergroup did primarily attempt to argue that they have been a spiritual group, so there’s obviously parts of that even when some AAs need to attempt to deny it.

13:30 John S: So you probably did this that both the District degree and the Area degree?

13:34 Lena R: Oh, so principally, this is technically nonetheless occurring on the District degree, they usually’re going to convey it to Space. But to me, I contemplate it just about a achieved deal, because in any case this occurred, I needed to make a presentation to District, and I decided I was simply going to be… I’m going to stop making an attempt to bop across the challenge here, I’m going to instantly say, “Hey, right here’s all of the issues that you simply’re doing which might be flawed, here’s what it seems like bullying to us, and should you really help our existence as a gaggle, you’d help this modest motion.” So I did that and thankfully, the 2 individuals who have been originally despatched to our group to type of… I assume like get in the ring with us and current counter arguments truly modified their minds.

14:23 Lena R: And the thing that was most exceptional is that there is one man particularly who was within the service construction, and I feel individuals have respect for him and part of it’s like, dare I say, white male privilege as properly, however he rotated and he stated, “You understand, I’ve considered it, I used to be totally mistaken. I’m sorry, and we should always help this. Sure.”

14:45 John S: Wow.

14:47 Lena R: After which the whole room flipped. So then, we determined to vote on a movement, however the District was going to help our request on the Space degree, so everyone voted sure on that, apart from one one that abstained.

15:02 John S: Oh, wow.

15:03 Lena R: And yeah… And in addition, anyone within the room put up their hand final minute and was like, “Do you also need to be… Have a secular class on the District assembly card,” which wasn’t even something we had requested for. So that passed as properly, however I feel pretty confident that once they convey this to the subsequent Space assembly they usually’re all in help of it, I feel like they’re going to move it.

15:24 John S: I guess so. Now, do you attend Space assemblies yourself?

15:29 Lena R: I haven’t yet. I’m considering I ought to perhaps go to the subsequent one, however…

15:32 John S: Yeah.

15:33 Lena R: Seems like a real bore. [chuckle]

15:35 John S: It type of is. [chuckle] To a sure extent it’s, it’s like… I type of jokingly say it’s type of like being at warfare as a result of it’s like they all the time describe struggle as being long durations of boredom broken up with brief durations of excitement or action or whatever. That’s type of what it’s like since you’ll spend like all day lengthy in some boring committees talking about trivia and so forth, but then hastily, there’s something that’s actually thrilling that happens like getting your designation on the media listing or whatever. [chuckle]

16:09 Lena R: Yeah. Yeah, completely. And I undoubtedly assume that they could have a bit extra participation simply to witness the drama of our secular group.

16:17 John S: Right, right. And it is truly type of… I assume what I like about it… I’m completely bored by all the committee conferences, for positive, but I do sort of like the little conversations I have with individuals between the conferences and so forth, and also you do… You might have that chance to sort of educate individuals about what your assembly’s about and so forth, and for me, I don’t attend common meetings so it’s my only exposure to the considering that is occurring out there with individuals from conventional teams, as a result of I’ll be speaking to them about our literature, what I think about it, they usually get like… They will’t consider I just stated that, one thing like that. [chuckle] It’s like…

16:58 Lena R: Yeah.

17:00 John S: And it helps me understand that… Really why we do want our groups as a result of… If I didn’t have the chance to talk about my recovery with other individuals like me, and I had to one way or the other either slot in with, or go towards the grain all the time, I just couldn’t do it.

17:21 Lena R: Absolutely. And it’s so humorous to see it like how weirdly revolutionary it’s simply to face up and be like, “I’m an atheist and I’m sober.” It’s like the entire room… A chill goes over the room. [chuckle]

17:32 John S: I know. It is type of humorous. because… I assume that folks… They purchase into the e-book, they assume, “Okay… ” because everyone talks up the Huge E-book so much. It’s not like a horrible ebook, but I feel that the best way that folks put so much speak into it as if it’s all, you realize, all of us need to comply with it 100%. And I assume in the event that they do this, they take a look at the chapter with the agnostics they usually assume assume that clearly an atheist or an agnostic, even the 12 and 12, we’ve got to vary if we’re going to be sober, and we truly proved them incorrect, that’s not the case.

18:06 Lena R: Yeah. And that’s an enormous drawback for me when it comes to my very own… I’ve my own inner struggles with regards to accepting the beliefs of different individuals, because in case you consider something and it helps you stay sober and it’s not hurting anybody, nice. However I feel in a method, believing in Christianity or things like that may go hand in hand with seeing the Massive Guide as in a means being from the mouth of God in a sense like God spoke via Bill W, after which we don’t have the opportunity to question the issues that they stated in the unique textual content.

18:43 Lena R: To me, the concept they didn’t get anything incorrect on the primary go round is ridiculous, however unfortunately, we still should battle inside the framework of what Bill W stated and what Dr. Bob stated, and thank heavens, there’s this quote from the Common Service Conference, the third one, the place Bill W stated one thing about how a variety of groups that use alternate steps are still groups as a result of otherwise, we might just need to persuade people who what they wrote was not gospel, and it’s simply… To me, it’s silly and it’s unfair.

19:12 John S: Yeah. I learn that within the letter that you simply wrote. I feel you wrote it in your District.

19:17 Lena R: Yes.

19:18 John S: Whenever you have been making an attempt to persuade them to go forward and settle for this concept, and also you talked about that quote from Bill W. And I assumed that was really a well-written letter, and I assumed your arguments have been introduced really intelligently, and in a approach that it might be actually troublesome for someone to say no, because you did inform the truth, I imply, Bill W and even Dr. Bob, they weren’t as strict concerning the Huge Guide even because the individuals are in the present day. And a lot of people sort of overlook that they even wrote in that ebook, that we solely know slightly bit, we’re going to know more afterward. And other people type of overlook that they usually are likely to, for whatever cause, assume that it needs to be just this manner as it was in that ebook, however it doesn’t.

20:09 Lena R: Yeah, I keep in mind studying within the e-book referred to as, Don’t Tell, I feel that’s revealed by Roger C.

20:18 John S: That’s right.

20:18 Lena R: Don’t quote me on that, okay. But anyway, any person stated in that ebook to say that traditional AA is the only thing that works is saying that as a result of penicillin was the first effective antibiotic it’s the one effective antibiotic, which is so foolish, and I want that we might simply open up our horizons. I attempt to hold hammering the purpose house about our main function to assist the alcoholic that still suffers because finally, individuals don’t get drunk because there’s a secular meeting listed on their assembly card, it simply doesn’t occur.

20:49 John S: Nicely, there are different teams that have had problems like this, and a few much more critical, I do know there’s a gaggle in Illinois, the Many Paths group, the place their District wouldn’t listing them on their meeting listing, because they have been… As a result of their group was also listed on the secular AA web site meeting listing, yeah, they’re still making an attempt to work that out. After which the Free Thinkers group in Denver, the Denver Central Office gained’t listing their meetings as a result of they only don’t like them, they stated that they don’t need a newcomer’s first impression of AA to be the Free Thinkers group. Yeah.

21:31 Lena R: Oh, my gosh, all I can say on that’s, thank heavens that that work has been executed in Toronto, as a result of with out that, we might all nonetheless just be scrounging in the dead of night, however I feel we will all reference that. And I don’t know if anyone’s tried to do this, however I might assume in the event you just emailed New York AA World Providers instantly and stated, “Hey, we’re having an issue identical to the individuals in Toronto had. Can you tell our Space that they need to record us?” I really feel like there’s an opportunity that may work, I don’t know, I haven’t tried it.

22:05 John S: I feel it will, I feel it will more now after the lawsuit in Toronto, as a result of before that, the position of the Common Service Workplace was principally, they weren’t going to intervene in an area central workplace’s choice, because that central office isn’t really a part of the overall service construction, and that each one that the Common Service Office does is share their experience or no matter, but I feel now because of that lawsuit, I feel that they might be extra more likely to say, “Oh, yeah, you need to record them.” I mean, that’s our experience for positive, is to listing those teams. In addition to that, the Common Service Office is now itemizing secular AA as a particular worldwide contact, together with the worldwide conference of younger individuals in AA, gays and lesbians in AA and different special curiosity groups. Which may help as nicely, so that if anybody actually needs to see, are we a professional particular interest group, they will just check it out.

23:01 Lena R: Yeah, that’s implausible. And I can solely hope that, once we had this entire battle come up, in a method it was truly really exciting for me. Like it was the chance we have been waiting for because this is, if we hadn’t had this battle about getting our class, we wouldn’t have been having these discussions and finally, now we’ve convinced a room filled with those that we’re an actual AA meeting and so yeah, in a method it’s good that each one these fights are occurring now because at the least we now have every little thing on our aspect, we’ve quotes from Invoice W and we have now the human rights grievance and we now have simply logic and empathy and simply so many causes to do that. So for me, perhaps it’s simply because I take pleasure in being a mouthy activist, however I had a great time with this.

23:51 John S: And truly, it’s actually good work that you simply’re doing too, because it’s going to assist a lot of people. The number of people who don’t consider in God is simply growing all the time, individuals once they go to a AA assembly they usually’re confronted with this entire idea that they have to vary their belief system, they might just somewhat say no, thanks, so it’s nice that you are letting individuals know that this meeting is secular. You’ll be able to see it right here. It’s like are you going to get that designation, and in addition it’s AA. So do you are feeling like your group and you’re a part of AA identical to another group?

24:33 Lena R: Oh, that is the good question. I’ll say I undoubtedly didn’t feel that approach one iota, until we had this District meeting, the place everyone rotated, I used to be so divorced from the humanity of the individuals in that room simply because it was such a continuing wrestle. Identical to… We’re continuously having to justify our personal existence, and it received to the purpose where we had individuals from the service construction coming into our meeting, they usually’re allowed to be there, however they’re being disrespectful jerks, because they’ll begin making an attempt to persuade us about why they consider in God, and we know why they’re there. So. However I imply, there’s actually one thing to be stated for the fact that they reconsidered what they have been saying. They apologized to us and just final week, I went to a standard assembly for the first time in many, many, many months and I felt pretty good about it, so I’m really glad this occurred.

25:30 John S: Nicely, good, yeah, it’s like this stuff, there’s all the time a silver lining in this stuff and it’s a really nice story as a result of the individuals take heed to you they usually change their minds. And then you definitely had a unanimous vote on the finish they usually principally, they did the best thing. And I’m glad too that you simply and your group have had the experience that you simply really feel such as you’ve type of reconciled and feel such as you’re more part of AA now. Our group has not had anything like this, and lots of the folks that go to our group have by no means been to another AA meeting and wouldn’t go to another AA meeting, and I typically assume that they don’t actually feel like they’re AA, they feel like they’re one thing separate from the remainder of AA, and I want that there, I wish that I might perhaps, I want I might do a better job of explaining to them how this can be a particular interest group. We are AA, however I assume it’s just because everyone… Everyone thinks that to be in a AA assembly, you’ve acquired to have these steps. You’ve acquired to learn this guide. And that’s just actually not true. That’s not true at all.

26:40 Lena R: Yeah, and I feel we do put a variety of… Not we. Conventional AA places a whole lot of strain on atheists, agnostics and freethinkers to do their psychological gymnastics around the wording and across the books and simply sort of accept that they do rely, however it’s virtually like all the evidence round you is on the contrary. Fortunately, there are secular AA groups and simply individuals who assume in a different way, who hopefully the extra of them that there are, the more our experiences are shared, like in the grapevine as properly. Hopefully, it’s going to all start feeling slightly bit extra related.

27:13 John S: Yep, I’ve seen plenty of change over simply the final 4 or 5 years with to begin with the Grapevine Edition that got here out where that they had the tales from atheists and agnostics. And then you definitely had the publication of the e-book for atheists and agnostics. And then the God Word pamphlet. That and now secular AA getting listed as a world contact for AA World Providers. So, that’s some massive stuff. That’s a whole lot of change in just the last 4 or five years.

27:44 Lena R: Oh, it’s lovely.

27:45 John S: Yeah, and prior to that, I’ve been in this system for a long time. And I spent actually many years, not likely as a believer however just making an attempt to fit in with what everyone was saying. And I acquired to the place I couldn’t do it anymore. Especially when my… Oh, am I atheist? I just really got here to simply accept I was an atheist and I felt very snug with it. And I used to be very snug with a secular interpretation of the program and my recovery, I felt like that’s what I used to be doing all along anyway. So the extra that I accepted my very own atheism, the harder it was. And actually, I couldn’t any longer, I couldn’t simply fake to be anything, you understand?

28:26 Lena R: Oh, absolutely. I truly wrote a letter to the Grapevine a couple of years ago and again then, I used to be nonetheless calling myself an agnostic they usually simply revealed it. And it’s type of humorous to see however finally I know deep down in my heart that me saying… And don’t get me flawed, being agnostic is completely legitimate in and of itself.

28:46 John S: Positive.

28:46 Lena R: But for me, I knew it was simply my method of compromising with AA to attempt to mould myself into their program and finally absolutely coming into my id as an atheist has actually strengthened my sobriety and just my high quality of life.

29:00 John S: So tell me concerning the letter to the Grapevine.

29:02 Lena R: Oh, so I wrote it right after they revealed the atheists and agnostics members of their problem of Grapevine. And principally, I simply advised them how thankful I used to be that they posted that and that I ordered 12 copies of it, which I did. [chuckle] I don’t actually know what prompted them to publish it this month, however I’m glad that they did. And it was somewhat good timing because it happened right after this entire District debacle and other people need to cope with the fact that I’m an actual member. [chuckle]

29:33 John S: So, it’s on this month’s Grapevine?

29:36 Lena R: Yeah, the April difficulty. Yeah.

29:37 John S: Oh, cool. I’ll need to examine that out. Nicely, that’s neat.

29:40 Lena R: Yeah, it is pretty neat. I’m enthusiastic about my new fame.

[chuckle]

29:44 John S: Properly, thank you, Lena. This actually has been a nice story. And I recognize you taking the time to share it with us. Do you could have another thoughts that you simply need to share earlier than we…

29:56 Lena R: No, I simply needed to say thanks so much for having this podcast. I’ve been bingeing it this entire final week [chuckle] and it’s been so useful to me. I adore it a lot.

30:04 John S: Nicely, thank you. Thanks rather a lot. I used to be for a very long time, I used to be doing these every single week. And it looks like for the previous few months I’ve not been very constant and I’m going to attempt to get again into it as a result of I do take pleasure in it. I identical to these conversations. To me, that is like the perfect assembly that I’ve of the week. So anyway, thank you for listening to those. I respect that.

[music]

30:24 Lena R: Oh, in fact. In fact. Thank you a lot.

30:26 John S: Bye-bye. Take care.

30:29 Lena R: Okay. Bye.

[music]

30:35 John S: And that concludes one other episode of AA Beyond Belief. Thanks everyone for listening. I respect your help. We’ll be back again actual soon with one other great podcast. Until then, you all take care. Be properly, we’ll speak once more actual soon.