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Episode 112: Staying Sober Without God

Episode 112: Staying Sober Without God

Staying Sober With out God: The Practical 12 Steps to Long-Time period Restoration from Alcoholism & Addictions, by Jeffrey Munn is a welcomed addition to the growing library of secular restoration literature. Munn’s reasoned and sensible strategy whereas focused for atheists and agnostics, can be used by anyone curious about studying concerning the Twelve Steps, and regardless of their habit.

On this episode Wes B. and John S. talk about their impressions of the guide whereas sharing their very own personal experiences as atheists who choose to integrate the Twelve Steps into their program of restoration.   


00:00 John S: Welcome to AA Past Belief. This is episode 112.


00:23 John S: At this time I’ll be speaking with Wes B, from my house group, We Agnostics concerning the e-book Staying Sober Without God by Jeffrey Munn. We’ll speak about our general impressions of the ebook, and then delve in just a little deeper into how Munn interprets the 12 steps. This episode might be posted to coincide with the e-book evaluation revealed on AA Agnostica so make sure you head over to to check out their evaluate of the guide. Alright, I’m right here with Wes from my residence group. He’s been on the podcast right here before once we have been speaking about another secular 12-step ebook. And at the moment, we’re going to be discussing a brand new guide that’s titled Staying Sober With out God and it’s written by Jeffrey Munn. Thank you Wes for agreeing to do this and being right here.

01:08 Wes B: Positive, thanks for having me John. I’m completely happy to evaluation one other guide with you.

01:13 John S: Yeah [chuckle] Why don’t you start by just giving us your general impression of the guide?

01:19 Wes B: Okay. Nicely, my general impression of the ebook I was actually, actually pleased with the guide. Actually before you even open the ebook, if you take a look at the duvet it says Staying Sober and then it says Without God and it’s very, very outstanding and I like that. I like the fact that it’s very clear from the outset that there’s no God in this. And clearly that’s the issue that many people have with the kind of antiquated language within the Massive Guide. So I assume we will undergo it and talk about totally different portions of it, however I might say that this specific e-book I feel it has every part you want in it if you want to strategy sobriety secularly. There are specific little critiques I have of it, however general, I was very happy with the fabric within.

02:16 John S: I was too. My general impression of it was favorable. I assumed it was well-written. I assumed it was well-reasoned. I assumed that a lot of the steps have been comported to my experience with working them in my time in AA. There have been a number of things that he talked about in there that I assumed have been recent. I appreciated for example, we’ll go into it once we go through the steps, but I like his examination of worry, and I additionally appreciated a few of the issues that he wrote about on the second a part of the ebook or the third part of the ebook when he talks about things that weren’t talked about within the steps. However yeah, the guide is pretty much specified by three elements. To begin with it talks about what is habit? What’s restoration? Then it goes into the steps. And then the third part is what issues that aren’t talked about within the steps. So perhaps we will just speak concerning the elements. To begin with, he has a dialogue about what habit and restoration is and I assumed it was fascinating. I imply, he just appears at habit… He didn’t speak about it in medical terms, like the opposite e-book did that we mentioned, but he talks about it merely as behaviors that we will’t cease which might be dangerous to us. I don’t know, what do you consider that as a method of taking a look at habit?

03:35 Wes B: I feel that’s a wonderfully affordable means to take a look at habit. He also mentioned our kind of character defects, our character belongings pushed to the acute, which I assumed was an fascinating… I’d by no means really thought of that before. However character belongings pushed too far grow to be character defects. However definitely, simply taking a look at habit as a collection of behaviors you can’t stop, positive, I’ll take it. That applies to all the things from overeating, intercourse habit, so yeah.

04:16 John S: Yeah, and all of these addictions can… Any of these addictions might use this ebook, anybody who has these addictions.

04:22 Wes B: Completely.

04:23 John S: But yeah, that’s a nice simple means of taking a look at it. It’s not likely essential to have to enter all the scientific things concerning the dopamine and all that type of stuff, which I feel is fascinating but still, yeah, whenever you boil proper right down to it, it’s a conduct that’s dangerous. And in my case, the conduct was consuming to excess and it was one conduct I couldn’t stop.

04:44 Wes B: Yeah. And for me it was opiates and alcohol, and it was definitely a conduct that I was unable to stop.

04:51 John S: Yeah, and he defines recovery too, which he… He defines recovery principally as which I can agree with as adapting a brand new way of life, a healthy way of life, and making an attempt to take care of that throughout life.

05:06 Wes B: Proper, absolutely. He mentions right here, I’ll quote, “There’s little question that religion and spirituality can play an incredible position in the restoration of many people. However I’ve come to consider that it isn’t only unnecessary, but probably harmful when imposed on recovering addicts for whom a faith-based strategy shouldn’t be a superb fit.” Which is a nice… As part of type of the introduction to this e-book. And he goes on to say, “Upon telling their fellows that their makes an attempt to connect with a God hasn’t labored, they’re led to consider that they are doing one thing flawed, or that they’re over-analyzing, or ‘too sensible for their very own good.’ ” And that’s the type of stuff. I went by way of a recovery program that was very traditional and I heard that on a regular basis like, “So that you assume you’re God?”

05:57 John S: Proper [chuckle]proper.

06:00 Wes B: Your greater energy is yourself. What is it referred to as? Will run riot. Self will run riot, and the underside line was, “No, I need to recuperate, but I need to get well with out the bullshit. I need to get well without God.”

06:20 John S: I’m past annoyed that so many individuals nonetheless persist with the spiritual language from 1939, because truthfully, for my part, I just assume it’s a total accident of history that it turned out that method. Because if it hadn’t been for the rattling Oxford group, I mean, all they did, they only discovered that one alcoholic speaking to a different, sharing expertise of what they went via labored for them. And it just was a complete accident that they did this via the Oxford group, that spoke with spiritual language.

06:52 Wes B: Right.

06:52 John S: So, subsequently, we have now this spiritual language. [chuckle] And it’s…

06:55 Wes B: Yeah, and the antiquated spiritual language, and the overtly misogynistic language.

07:02 John S: Yeah.

07:02 Wes B: It all caught and now we have now to write down all these separate damn books to bridge the gap for those of us who are fairly frankly, essential thinkers.

07:15 John S: Yeah. Yeah.

07:15 Wes B: Atheists, agnostics, so on.

07:18 John S: Nevertheless it’s really the fault of the folks that got here after them because these individuals who wrote the e-book they stated, “Hey, consider us. We don’t know every thing, more shall be revealed later, that is simply what we’re telling you now in 1939.”

07:31 Wes B: Right.

07:31 John S: I don’t assume that they anticipated 80 years later that folks have been going to be making an attempt to duplicate their words and comply with their…

07:37 Wes B: Proper, I know, it’s like Bible literalists.

07:40 John S: Proper.

07:41 Wes B: It’s I can’t… Yeah, they didn’t assume individuals would take that soccer and run with it and stick with this very strict language that has develop into simply this AA dogma that then pollutes so many traditional meetings.

07:58 John S: Yeah.

08:00 Wes B: I used to be informed in restoration time and again, “Your greatest considering received you here. Your greatest fucking considering obtained you here.” They beat that into me. And he, in his ebook, he says, I really like this, “Our best considering doesn’t destroy our lives, our worst considering does.”

08:17 John S: Yeah.

08:17 Wes B: And it’s like yeah, it, this… I used to be approached with such hostility. “Your greatest considering acquired you right here.” It’s like, “No, no, my worst.”

08:27 John S: That’s true.

08:28 John S: Yeah, I do know, I never did really did understand that trigger really, yeah, it was my greatest considering. The most effective factor I ever did was determine to cease getting help. So it was really my greatest considering…

08:37 Wes B: Proper.

08:38 John S: It was my worst considering that…

08:40 Wes B: My worst considering.

08:41 Wes B: Was preserving me away.

08:42 John S: Acquired me into hassle.

08:43 Wes B: Right, right.

08:43 Wes B: My worst considering is what acquired me into the hospital, received, resulted in pancreatitis, and all types of issues and that was my worst considering. He additionally mentions here, this is one in every of my favourite quotes in the whole ebook, and it kind of, it appeals to me as an atheist, because this is type of how I take a look at the world and this is similar to one thing that Carl Sagan once stated, he says, “Some like myself can drive a sense of awe, marvel, and which means, just from considering the cosmos and our existence within it, in addition to the method of Evolution that made us what we are immediately.” And that’s, to me that’s kind of that’s his religious assertion and for many who make this wild assumption that atheists are usually not religious, and are devil worshippers and all this, it’s quite on the contrary. A lot of the atheists I know are intimately related with nature and awe, and spirituality of kind of their very own type. I get extra out of, to be trustworthy with you, I get more out of 12 steps as an atheist than I did once I was making an attempt to do that before I noticed I was an atheist.

10:00 John S: Once I was making an attempt to evolve myself to this concept that there was some God on the market that was going to unravel all my issues for me, or direct me, or guide me, or no matter. And once I deserted that and went with this idea that there’s a natural rationalization for every thing, that I’m in, I have, it’s what I do this issues not what I consider, and it’s my reference to other folks that empowers me, not some supernatural drive. I mean it simply makes more sense to me. And it just, it works better for me. And truthfully, once we begin speaking concerning the steps as we undergo this, there’s two steps that I feel we atheists do higher than anyone else, they usually’re the two most spiritual steps which are in the program, steps six and 7. Because in the event you actually consider them literally, you don’t actually need to do anything.

10:46 Wes B: Exactly, the work is completed for you.

10:49 John S: Yeah. Yeah. But we’re pressured to should do one thing.

10:52 Wes B: Proper, right. As a result of when you strategy, “Hey God, take away my character defects.” It doesn’t magically occur like that. It’s a process. It takes works, it takes crucial considering. It takes being rational and you can’t pray away your defects.

11:13 John S: No.

11:13 Wes B: That’s horseshit.

11:14 John S: So we’re pressured to think about them, and truly do something about them.

11:18 Wes B: Proper.

11:18 John S: In order that’s…

11:19 Wes B: And that’s fascinating to me, that you simply went via that transformation.

11:22 John S: Yeah.

11:23 Wes B: Proper. So that you approached the 12 steps type of as a believer, and then approached the 12 steps as an atheist, because I came to it already as an atheist.

11:30 John S: Yeah, yeah. As an atheist, yeah.

11:32 Wes B: So that’s actually fascinating to me, and I haven’t heard you truly say that before. And I feel that’s actually fascinating that you’ve approached it both methods.

11:41 John S: Yeah.

11:41 Wes B: So you realize.

11:43 John S: And what’s bizarre too was because my background, I did not have a spiritual background, however AA turned my religion. So I was going to conferences and I used to be doing my greatest to consider.

11:53 Wes B: Right.

11:53 John S: And I assume I used to be going by way of the motions, I did the whole, “Pretend it til you make it” factor. I might truly get on my knees and pray.

12:00 Wes B: Yeah, yeah.

12:00 John S: And I might speak about God, and I might try to have this connection, but I all the time sort of deep down knew that… I assume what my drawback with it all along was that I all the time felt there was something flawed with me as a result of I couldn’t actually consider like different individuals.

12:18 Wes B: Did it seem somewhat fraudulent?

12:19 John S: Yeah, I might by no means truly make a reference to God like other individuals appeared to.

12:24 Wes B: Right, and you felt phony.

12:27 John S: Yeah, I did.

12:28 Wes B: You felt like you have been going via the motions and paying lip service to the group, and that’s what you knew, you in all probability knew what they needed to hear and see.

12:36 John S: Exactly, and in a means, I’m sort of… It’s just, I’m a human being, that’s what human beings do…

12:42 Wes B: Proper.

12:42 John S: But there’s a part of me that looks like, “I wish I might have been extra unbiased in my considering, and less of a conformist.” But I completely conformed.

12:52 Wes B: Nicely, in conventional AA it’s all about conforming.

12:54 John S: It is, it’s rewarded.

12:55 Wes B: Right. It’s extremely rewarded and to point out up and to challenge the 12 steps, or the traditions, and even point out that you are an atheist, it’s frowned upon. You’ll receive crosstalk. On the end of one in every of my meetings, a fella came in late, so he didn’t catch the preamble, which declared that this meeting was agnostic, atheist. He rambled on for about 12 minutes about all types of spiritual stuff, which we allowed, and then at the end of the meeting, he stood up, put out his arms and stated, “We’re not going to say the Lord’s Prayer?” And I stated, “No, this can be a secular assembly.” And he received livid, and he stated, “Disgrace on you, disgrace on you.” And I chased him out of there with extreme vulgarity, as a result of I couldn’t tolerate that in our group.

13:50 John S: Yeah.

13:51 Wes B: But that’s the sort of actual hostility that typically will rear its ugly head in traditional meetings. So I feel that there’s an undercurrent inside conventional AA of people who are both agnostics or atheists, but are scared to share that, or… I feel that, such as you stated, we’re human, we naturally conform to the herd, the tribe or no matter, but I feel that you will see there are in all probability a lot of people in AA going via the motions, and the truth that we now have now more secular teams, and because the world itself is, I wouldn’t say on an exponential rise, however definitely on a rise of free thinkers, I feel we’re going to see extra individuals displaying up at our meetings, fairly frankly.

14:44 John S: Oh yeah, we’re. However you’re proper, individuals are afraid. I used to be afraid, I was afraid to let individuals know concerning the books I used to be studying.

14:51 Wes B: Really?

14:52 John S: Yeah, I used to be afraid of letting individuals know what I was reading. I learn Dawkins and…

14:57 Wes B: Oh yeah, how dare you?

14:58 John S: And Hitchens, and… Oh, and I was simply… They usually satisfied me.

15:03 Wes B: Sam Harris.

15:04 John S: Sam Harris, they usually satisfied me.

15:05 Wes B: Yeah, I learn all the identical stuff.

15:06 John S: They totally convinced me.

15:07 Wes B: Yeah, learn The God Delusion.

15:08 John S: Yeah, I read that.

15:09 Wes B: Take your time, read “The God Delusion,” and if you need slightly bit extra florid and troublesome studying, read Christopher Hitchens work.

15:22 John S: But I might go to these conferences, I’d tap dance round them. I’d tap dance around the steps and every little thing and all of the spiritual language, making an attempt to someway be trustworthy while holding again, and I couldn’t do it anymore. And once I started talking my fact, I acquired some of that pushback that you simply have been talking about.

15:38 Wes B: Acquired a bit pushback, yeah. But you have been on a high wire. You have been doing all of your little balancing act, making an attempt to fit in with the group while having it is sensible in your head. Identical to… Although I’ve been an atheist just about so long as I can keep in mind, I did go to Presbyterian church once I was a kid, so someplace… Village Presbyterian church somewhere. My identify is on an inventory there someplace. However though that was a very liberal church, there wasn’t an entire lot of dogma there, however still, I simply keep in mind all types of tales from the Bible from once I was a toddler, and to me, it was all simply patently nonsense, nonsensical, and each time I’m type of challenged on atheism, to start with, I say it’s not, it’s definitely not a religion, it’s kind of the other, it’s simply widespread sense.

16:34 John S: Nicely, let’s go ahead and speak about his steps, when you don’t thoughts. One thing that he recommends quite a bit relating to working the steps, which I feel… Which might have worked for me because I like to write down, he recommends writing so much. And he goes via steps one by way of three which, to me, the best way that he defines them or describes them pretty much comport with my experience, which is principally recognizing a problem. However the best way he words the second one is coming to the understanding that you simply want a healthy way of life, which is type of a unique means of wording it, after which making the commitment to it. So, the best way I noticed it was just about the identical. I admit I have a problem, I got here to consider that there was assist, and I made a decision to go through with it.

17:26 Wes B: Yeah, and that these are practical.

17:28 John S: Yeah.

17:28 Wes B: Going back real fast, I remembered what I forgot. Quite simple. I simply say to individuals, my atheism, I consider in God the very same approach I consider in Santa Claus. That’s it, backside line. However going again to what you’re saying, yeah, I recognized I had a problem, and I made a decision to cope with it. In a whole lot of these recovery books, so that you and I’ve mentioned a few these, however you and I know there are plenty of them out there. And each time the steps are rephrased, it all the time seems to be some kind of semantic balancing act, or some semantic gymnastics just to tweak it just a little. And I’ve discovered, as we discussed earlier, on this e-book, just loads of his sensible versions of the steps have been of steps that have been already sensible and with out God, so type of pointless, a few of the steps. The steps that embrace God definitely want a practical revision, however we’ll get to that. Sorry, go on.

18:42 John S: No that’s positive. But when he talks concerning the first three steps particularly, he talks about step one and he truly recommends, how do you’re employed that step? And so he says, write it out, write out your experiences, speak to a pal about your experiences, after which, whenever you finally get to the place where you’re convinced that you’ve this drawback, you then’re there, you then’re completely satisfied. And I can see some worth in that, but I have a special type of a nuanced view of this stuff. I feel that the steps, especially as written, are… A variety of them are experiential they usually’re nothing greater than a description of an experience. And I feel these first three steps are just that. It’s simply that… If they have been describing an expertise that they had. It was the best way they have been describing I’m hitting backside and asking for help, principally.

19:32 Wes B: Proper.

19:33 John S: And, they worded it because their expertise was a spiritual one, they have been put in a spiritual language. But… So for me, I feel that these steps… These three steps occur to you. They aren’t actually essentially issues that you simply do. Nevertheless, I do discover worth nonetheless in studying books like this where you’ll be able to perhaps understand that experience higher. You already know?

19:55 Wes B: Right, right, right.

19:56 John S: And what… And how and the way it shaped you.

19:58 Wes B: Proper, proper. I really like how he goes into detail about every step and working each step. However his practical version of step one was, admitted we have been caught in a self-destructive cycle, and presently lacked the instruments to cease it.

20:14 John S: Yeah.

20:14 Wes B: Which is a wonderfully affordable. But the traditional version in fact, admitted we have been powerless over alcohol, that our lives had grow to be unmanageable. That also works.

20:24 John S: Yeah, I do know, I don’t ever have problems with the first one.

20:27 Wes B: No, in truth I don’t.

20:28 Wes B: And actually, it’s type of crucial step. Will get you within the door. And when you really admit to your self, you’ve got a problem, then you’ve got an opportunity of… You actually have a shot at restoration.

20:40 Wes B: Yeah.

20:41 John S: Now I’ve met individuals who have problems with the word powerless.

20:45 Wes B: Yeah, yeah, I can see that.

20:46 John S: And a few of them assume too, as a result of you possibly can read forward they usually say, “Oh I’m giving up my power to God,” but I just take a look at it as… You’re empowered by admitting that you simply’re powerless over alcohol, I’m powerless over my consuming.

21:05 Wes B: Right, exactly, precisely, powerless over alcohol.

21:08 John S: Alcohol not every… I’m not powerless over doing one thing about it. I’m powerless over once I drink. You recognize, what happens.

21:15 Wes B: Exactly, exactly. However individuals are free to make use of whatever language they need. However I like how the ebook is full of kind of actionable steps. I mean…

21:24 John S: True.

21:25 Wes B: It’s motion. It’s a unique way of life, it’s changing your habits, altering your… The best way you interact with the others, these simple issues. Honesty and compassion he goes on about these and simply psychological well being generally. He even mentions within the guide this is not a substitute, there are not any 12-step packages, they’re an alternative to actual skilled mental assist. And receiving professional mental assist by means of a therapist or in conjunction, a therapist and a psychiatrist is nearly vital for most people, in the event that they’ve actually hit rock bottom. To have that in addition to the 12 Steps. The 12 Steps are an excellent factor to read if you’re at house and to work in your life. But lots of us need more than just the guide.

22:18 John S: Yeah, yeah, and he writes about… He says… He wrote in his… He wrote within the e-book that it’s inherently human, I assume, to need to have a blueprint or some course of action to take, a plan to comply with. And I do know for positive that loads of newcomers, they do need that. And once we have been first beginning in our group, I used to be slightly bit turned off by a few of the construction from traditional AA. But I noticed a number of the newcomers coming in and some of them are slightly bit annoyed that no one was there to inform them what to do. They didn’t really have a factor to do, so a e-book like this is helpful as a result of you will get it out, you’ll be able to read it and you may… There’s certain activities you possibly can undertake, there are issues that you can do which are concrete.

23:05 Wes B: Yeah, which might be concrete. Absolutely, that’s the purpose. So this can be a ebook that, by the best way, after this podcast, I’m handing to a sponsee.

23:14 John S: Oh, good for you.

23:14 Wes B: Because the guide is so helpful. So what I say to the sponsee, “Okay, here’s the guide, underline or highlight every thing that applies to you, or every thing that resonates with you, and there’s an excellent probability that your highlighter’s going to expire of ink. As a result of there must be an terrible lot as an addict that you simply acknowledge in right here”. However once more, the motion steps, like you stated, there’s type of a blue print right here. Right here’s some actual issues you can do to maneuver ahead.

23:51 John S: If we’ve got a step meeting at We Agnostics, I wouldn’t mind utilizing that e-book and in addition, Invoice Wolf’s ebook. I feel the two books are really good. I feel a number of books are nice, however I might be joyful to make use of that ebook at a step assembly because it’s received plenty of… It’s obtained numerous weight to it, it’s acquired… It’s something that folks can learn and talk about and think about and do, I mean there’s actually great things in there.

24:15 Wes B: Absolutely. This specific ebook is slightly bit extra clinic medical than Invoice Wolf’s e-book, which was 12 secular steps.

24:23 John S: Yeah.

24:25 Wes B: Bill’s e-book is actually good in the fact that it’s simple, it’s like one thing like should you simply get out of remedy. That may be the e-book.

24:33 John S: Absolutely, and that’s something else I needed to mention is, a e-book like this that is just completely… Nicely, to start with, it’s very properly written and full of data. To start with, individuals coming proper out of remedy, studying just isn’t straightforward for them, typically. And then you definitely also… These certain proportion of these popping out of remedy, weren’t readers in the first place.

24:56 Wes B: True.

24:58 Wes B: So even when you have been a reader, you’re type of impaired. And when you weren’t a reader to start with, it’s like they’re taking a look at ink on paper, but they’re not getting the message. So discussing these in groups is admittedly clever as a result of they will hear.

25:16 John S: Proper.

25:17 Wes B: They will hear the message. But they may not… They could have a tough time in that… So we’ve all these fantastic recovery books on the market, however how many individuals who want them are actually reading them?

25:30 John S: Right. True. That’s certainly one of my considerations. I wasn’t at a lot of a reader once I was first getting sober. I read the large ebook and I was truly fascinated by this too, the Massive E-book. Once I very first saw it, the primary time I ever noticed it, I used to be dissatisfied. I stated, “What the fuck is this?” But after a while I started to virtually worship it like everyone else did.


25:52 Wes B: I nonetheless have… Look, I’m a stone chilly atheist, however I have an intimate connection to my Massive Guide. It’s filled with notes, it’s highlighted all to hell and canine eared. I’ve an intimate relationship with my Huge Ebook. And I acquired one of many really huge ones, just like the ridiculously giant ones in order that I had room to put in writing notes.

26:11 John S: And I like history too, so it’s anyway… For me it’s fascinating to type of transport yourself again to that point in that language. It’s identical to in the event you watch an previous Turner Basic Movie, it’s that language from the Massive Ebook is in these films.

26:24 Wes B: No. It’s like, “This dame must get sober.” Yeah. Not precisely, it’s… Tremendous antiquated, rocketed into the fourth dimension. There’s some fascinating language within the Massive Guide and…

26:36 John S: In truth, if we might do a Step Assembly at We Agnostics, I’d truly do convey the Huge Guide in. Oh yeah. I feel it’s good to comprehend it just from no less than a historic perspective, so that folks understand… There’s lots of people in my group that never read the Huge E-book, in our group.

26:51 Wes B: Yeah.

26:52 John S: And I’m all the time bringing that up because it’s, “Look guys, I’m an atheist however there’s so much value in the Massive E-book.”

27:00 Wes B: Yeah there’s. There’s.

27:01 John S: Should you highlight every thing that you simply relate to, it is just… And if you want to scratch out the phrase God or reduce it out with scissors, whatever you want to do, decide up a damn Massive E-book.

27:12 Wes B: Yeah. Yeah. And in the event you’re going to do the steps from a secular perspective, it’d be good to know what the opposite approach was anyway, simply to see…

27:22 John S: Nicely, to type of have the experience you had.

27:24 Wes B: Yeah. Yeah to see the…

[overlapping conversation]

27:26 Wes B: To see it both ways. And you had numerous that language, like you stated, it was a holdover from the Oxford group or no matter, but that… And of course the… Due to the semi… I don’t know the best way to determine to say semi… Sensible. Overt misogynistic language in the Massive Guide. I do know of a number of ladies within the group who won’t get close to the Massive E-book.

27:50 John S: I know. They don’t like it.

27:51 Wes B: Which is totally truthful.

27:52 John S: Yeah.

27:53 Wes B: However once more, reduce those pages out. There’s nonetheless a whole lot of content. And one in every of my favorite sayings is, “Take what you need, depart the remaining.” And you may study something from virtually any fucking ebook you’ve obtained.

28:05 John S: That’s true. That’s true.

28:06 Wes B: And I’m an enormous reader, I read so much and I read extensively. And you may study… You possibly can truly study wholesome methods to conduct your life soberly from reading fiction.

28:22 John S: Yeah. Yeah. I don’t learn sufficient fiction.

28:24 Wes B: There are specific issues you possibly can just kind of decide up.

28:26 John S: Yep.

28:27 Wes B: Now, in fact if you’d like the speedway to the highway to sobriety, a ebook like this in fact is best.

28:34 John S: Yeah.

28:35 Wes B: as a result of this guide is completely filled with useful info, and as you have been saying, the importance of writing which I do a variety of too. There’s something concerning the tangible, the ink on the paper, it’s forcing your mind to think about what you’re writing. So writing some of these lists, writing in preparation for the steps like this ebook recommends is absolutely clever. I’ve type of a joke in high school, I used to make little cheat sheets so I might cheat on checks. I might write really really small on a bit of paper and unleash all the knowledge. After which I’d learn that, but then, once I obtained to the check, I knew the solutions.

29:17 John S: Yeah. since you studied. You… Yeah.

29:19 Wes B: Yeah, right. Because I wrote it all down, and so I had truly put it in my mind without realizing it.

29:23 John S: There you go.

29:24 Wes B: So I didn’t even should reference my cheat sheet as a result of I had discovered it all, as a result of I wrote it down.

29:30 John S: By getting ready to cheat, you’re truly learning.


29:32 Wes B: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So there’s value in writing one thing down as a result of it’s forcing you to type of think about it.

29:42 John S: Can we speak about four and 5 for just a little bit? His steps four and five.

29:44 Wes B: Yeah positive.

29:45 John S: Okay, so his step four could be very very very similar to the unique step four where he… Principally you make lists, and what he suggests you do is you make an inventory of all of the… To start with he talks about what resentment is. And that is necessary for people who don’t know what a resentment is, or the phrase resentment. But he breaks it down, and that is exactly how I used to be taught to know it, a resentment means to re-feel, it’s to relive some past event, and to really feel the feelings as if it’s at present occurring. And it’s not necessarily a really wholesome solution to reside, because it retains you dwelling up to now, and these resentments will take on a lifetime of their own, so it takes you out of reality. So anyway, he says, “Listing all of the individuals in your life that you simply resent”, and then he says, “Listing what happened, the thing that occurred,” I consider is with the subsequent half…

30:32 Wes B: And then the impression.

30:33 John S: And the influence, what had happened to you, right?

30:37 Wes B: Right, after which my part.

30:38 John S: And then my part.

30:39 Wes B: Proper.

30:39 John S: Yeah, and then that’s exactly like it’s within the Huge Ebook. And he says, “You’re wanting solely at your part, although the opposite individual may need played an element, you’re just taking a look at your half.” Completely identical to the Huge Guide is. Okay. I don’t know, what do you consider that process?

30:54 Wes B: Properly, I feel it’s great, because once more you’re writing these things down which is forcing you to consider it. It’s forcing you to take a look at this stuff, and it’s also forcing you to take some fucking duty.

31:05 John S: True.

31:05 Wes B: That’s what it’s really all about. And he stresses that in this e-book, that it’s very straightforward to play the blame recreation and say, “I drank due to work, I drank due to my spouse, I drank because of this. This that… ” You possibly can blame every little thing, “It’s the world’s fault.” Right? But if you want to get sober, you need to transition into this… You need to begin taking duty in your position in it. So once you write this stuff out, finally, the last column, my part in it, that’s the aim. It’s what we’re making an attempt to get to. And once you acknowledge your half in these resentments, it may well really assist to kind of reshape the best way you are feeling about them, and may help get you prepared to… Nicely, make amends if you must, or whatever. But when you understand… Really understand your part in it, that’s the objective proper there. And the start of the Huge Guide refers to resentments because the number one offender, and I feel that’s probably the most sensible strains within the Huge Ebook because the resentments will take you down quicker than… The resentments are what triggered you to take the poison so the other individual dies, whatever. Resentments are insidious. They’re deep and could be super dangerous so… Sunlight is one of the best disinfectant, Right?

32:29 John S: Yeah.

32:30 Wes B: Let’s get this stuff out. Let’s write them down, let’s analyze them, and let’s see what our half…

32:36 John S: And I like what he wrote in there about being objective, and he talked about objectivity as like what a scientist does whenever you’re doing an experiment. You’re simply being goal, you’re simply wanting on the details, and that’s what that is. Then when, for those who ever get to the purpose where you’re doing it where you start feeling shame, then he says, “Take a break. Walk away”, because that’s not what it’s about. You want to try it just from a factual perspective of what truly happened. You’re in search of the reality, you’re not on the lookout for, you don’t need to wallow in dangerous emotions once you’re doing it principally.

33:05 Wes B: And this goes again to logic and important considering. Wanting at the details, being… And like you stated, wanting on the fact of the state of affairs.

33:14 John S: The truth.

33:15 Wes B: And the reality of the state of affairs typically includes one thing you probably did.

33:21 John S: Yeah. Yeah.

33:22 Wes B: You virtually all the time had played… You performed some position in the resentment.

33:27 John S: Yeah. Then he talks about itemizing your fears. And there’s one thing in there that I really, really favored, and I feel I’m in all probability going to overlook about it. Oh, yeah. Okay, I favored the best way that he checked out fears. Now once I originally did this stock again many years ago, when it came to my fears I simply put them down on paper prefer it says to do in The Massive Ebook, and I asked myself why I had them. In the Massive E-book, it says, “Because self-sufficiency failed you.” Okay. I didn’t quite get rather a lot out of that, but the best way he appears at it, he says, “You’re taking a look at principally irrational, okay, you’ve got these core beliefs.” He says, “That aren’t necessarily true. That they’re a bit dysfunctional, and these are fears. Your fears are based mostly on these core beliefs that aren’t necessarily true. And the best way that you simply overcome these fears, or you cope with these fears, is you substitute them with reality-based core beliefs.” So you possibly can have a core belief that the world is… That life is harmful, the world is dangerous, I feel is one which he says. That’s a core belief.

34:36 Wes B: Proper.

34:37 John S: But you’ll be able to exchange that with a reality-based belief that there are dangers you can mitigate.

34:44 Wes B: Proper.

34:45 John S: Yeah. So I assumed that was just a good method of taking a look at it. That you simply’ve received these core, your fears are nothing more than the misplaced core beliefs. If I understood it right.

34:54 Wes B: Yeah. No, no, you nailed it. One other distorted core perception he has is, “I am unlovable.” And his alternate practical perception is, “I have lovable traits that I can study to nurture, and so forth. I am incompetent. Nicely, I am capable of learning identical to everyone else, there’s a number of things I’m knowledgeable about.” So yeah, the alternate sensible beliefs that you could type of give attention to can steer you away from your distorted core belief. I actually like that too. There’s another one distorted core perception, “Nothing works out for me.” Alternate practical perception is, “Some issues work out for me and a few don’t. I can select to focus more on the issues that do work.”

35:41 John S: Yeah, yeah. I like that and it’s fairly just like the place I lastly obtained as an atheist once I looked at my fears, the best way that I cope with worry is thru understanding. So it’s pretty much the same thing. I know that my fears are just about irrational, but if I really perceive the reality, like in case you’re afraid to fly, perceive how airplanes work.

36:05 Wes B: Proper, right. Yeah.

36:08 John S: And that’s how they deal with worry of flying, by the best way, they train individuals how airplanes work, they take them on flights, and every time there’s a bump or one thing, they clarify what it is.

36:17 Wes B: Turbulence, proper? I sat next to a lady on a aircraft who was absolutely horrified and I, we have been landing, and I defined to her, that even when the wheels touched down, the wings are nonetheless carrying the aircraft and it’s all tremendous protected, and it’s unbelievably dependable and it’s…

36:38 John S: So the worry comes from not understanding.

36:40 Wes B: Precisely, precisely.

36:40 John S: It’s from not understanding.

36:41 Wes B: And I’ve heard you speak about this in conferences before, about just, yeah search the reality concerning the state of affairs and that may… And I’m really dangerous about it as a result of I’ve a whole lot of unrealistic, simply ridiculous fears, and I should comply with your recommendation and really take a look at the truth of the state of affairs. I have insane, fucking ridiculous fears, like going to my, like driving right down to my artwork studio. Why ought to I be frightened of that? I am. In fact I’ve been in, two individuals have run purple lights and hit me in the last yr and a half, but that’s perhaps part of the worry of driving. However something about simply even going to work. It, so I am very acquainted with irrational fears, and that’s something I personally have to work on, but I really like your strategy, and I’ve heard you say it before. Where you break it down, you study the truth about what’s actually occurring in real life and type of in search of understanding of that.

37:48 John S: Properly, the worry of driving typically in Kansas Metropolis is fairly rational, because I truly lived in the northeast part of city, northeast Kansas City, individuals do not cease at pink lights there. They only don’t. Every time I might strategy a cease sign or a inexperienced mild, I might all the time stop and see if there’s anybody else coming before I went via it. You simply don’t belief it.

38:08 Wes B: Yeah, I’m not…


38:10 Wes B: I can see my Nissan Xterra out your window and it’s my third one in a yr and a half due to individuals operating pink lights.

38:17 John S: Yeah, it’s crazy.

38:19 Wes B: It’s unbelievable, so that may be a rational worry. That it’s… Worry of driving, there’s some… There’s all the time danger in driving.

38:29 John S: There’s danger.

38:29 Wes B: You’ll be able to mitigate it. However the worry of being at my studio, and the worry that, “Perhaps, what I’m going to supply isn’t nearly as good appropriately,” or “Am I ok to do what I’m setting out to do?” They’re all types of fears on all totally different ranges that…

38:48 John S: Being an artist is troublesome, I might think about as a result of it’s really like… Nicely, an actor is an artist, and you’re up on stage, and also you may bomb, your comedian as an artist you may just bomb. You’ve the same factor as whenever you produce a murals.

39:02 Wes B: Yeah, visible art.


39:05 Wes B: Nicely, it’s the identical thing.

39:05 John S: Yeah, since you’re producing it for different individuals I assume, in a method, aren’t you?

39:08 Wes B: Yeah, principally it’s to be seen there and it will get judged.

39:14 John S: Yeah.

39:15 Wes B: It gets judged, typically favorable, typically it’s not.

39:18 John S: Yeah, I might see worry hooked up to that.

39:20 Wes B: Yeah, and I’m 37, and I’ve actually been an artist my complete life. I are likely to assume I do know what I’m doing and I have a ton of schooling within the area and have even taught on the school degree all the things from Art Historical past, to color principle, to drawing, portray, so on, and there’s still a rational worry. Even when my work is lauded. Even once I present up in fucking magazines and stuff, and I’m nonetheless terrified that I’m not ok.

39:50 John S: Wow I can see that, that’s a… I assumed “Perhaps that’s why numerous artists drink.”


39:55 Wes B: Quick plug from

39:57 John S: Yeah.

40:00 Wes B: Yeah, I had a bottle of vodka on my drafting desk all the time within the studio. There was all the time a bottle of vodka in there because I might work at, simply with out worry, I might paint fearlessly as long as I had my opiates and my vodka.

40:20 John S: Let me ask you this, veering off from this ever did work, have been you afraid if you obtained sober, that you simply wouldn’t be capable of produce artwork?

40:27 Wes B: Yeah, I was.

40:27 John S: I hear that quite a bit.

40:28 Wes B: I was after which I discovered it was truly fairly the other. My work has improved drastically since I’ve gotten sober. And that may be a belief that many artists have, is that their work is best once they’re intoxicated. No, you consider your work is best if you’re intoxicated. You are feeling higher about it nevertheless it doesn’t mean the product is definitely nearly as good.

40:53 John S: Yeah, I’ve all the time been about once I speak to individuals in restoration who’re artists, whether or not it’s any sort of art, whether they’re writing or anything, I’ve all the time been inquisitive about that entire process.

41:06 Wes B: When all your schools are restored, you strategy issues more logically, more thoughtfully and more rigorously, extra creatively. It was actually lucky for me, I was virtually lifeless. I used to be a nasty drinker and consumer, fairly dangerous, and so that is kind of my second shot or truly… I assume it’s my first, I’m starting now to be an artist because once I was consuming and utilizing, I used to be hiding at house and doing all types of bizarre issues and I primarily, acquired kicked out of a gallery because every time I confirmed up, I was just wasted. They didn’t need to… They’re like, “No, we don’t need to characterize this loser.” Anyhow, enough about me, however there’s definitely plenty of consuming and using in the artistic arts.

42:03 John S: A variety of magic.

42:04 Wes B: And a variety of it’s about worry.

42:05 John S: Yeah.

42:06 Wes B: You see a comic, Ron White on stage with the glass of whiskey, he drinks on stage, and yeah that’s… I’m positive, I’m positive, there’s no question in my thoughts that he does that to combat worry.

42:18 John S: Positive.

42:19 Wes B: And to bolster his confidence.

42:22 John S: Positive, positive. Properly, let’s take a look at his steps six and 7, which we have been talking about. I don’t know if we’re talking about this once we’re recording or not, however I feel I informed you that atheists do that better than others as a result of we truly do work in it. There isn’t any God that does it, but what he talks about right here, it’s just about the conclusion that I had come to is that I don’t really use the phrase character defects, I think of them as character traits or character traits, he does the identical factor and the best way he described it, if I keep in mind right, is that we developed these traits as a method of dealing with life, and it was a dysfunctional means. It turned out that we relied on them to get by means of life, however it turned out to be dysfunctional, and so we had to study, we needed to find constructive or character traits that work.

43:11 Wes B: Right, he stated, “We aren’t defective, we have now developed thought and conduct patterns that when served a objective, however have turn out to be dysfunctional. Most of those so-called character defects are actually character belongings which were taken to an excessive in response to life events.”

43:25 John S: And doesn’t he say something about, it’s not about eradicating them, however it’s changing them with constructive traits?

43:32 Wes B: Yeah, exactly, and specializing in the constructive traits. And implementing the constructive traits in easy every day steps, like holding the fucking door for somebody. I mean, simply little tiny things. When you attempt to decide up litter, decide up trash, you do these types of issues, you present up to work on time, whether or not anyone knows, when you’re the one individual within the constructing, you continue to present up on time, simply this little every day be sure to achieve this many useful constructive things that any respectable individual would do. I imply, on the end of the day, what we’re making an attempt to do is grow to be better individuals.

44:13 John S: Right, yeah.

44:15 Wes B: So I like the truth that he makes it clear that these are very… A few of these steps… These are really easy issues to do, simply exit and be an honest individual.

44:25 John S: Yeah. When he does these steps too on six and 7 again, he begins, he talks about writing, once more, I feel in step seven, as a result of he says put Publish-It notes in order that no matter constructive character traits you need to follow and every thing like that. That’s in all probability good, that’s in all probability good for someone. I’ve heard sponsors say issues like that. Put one thing on the mirror within the morning so it’s like the first thing you see and all that type of stuff.

44:47 Wes B: Yeah, my mirror at house has somewhat thing taped onto it that my sponsor in Florida has taped on his, or caught to his mirror, it says “You are looking at the drawback.” And that’s, although it sounds fairly destructive, it’s really just a reminder that I’m accountable.

45:03 John S: You’re responsible.

45:04 Wes B: I’m accountable.

45:04 John S: Yeah, it’s not something outdoors, it’s you which you could cope with.

45:08 Wes B: Yeah, [chuckle] definitely not. Yeah, there’s no supernatural or mystical power that’s going to take away my 26 character defects that I came up within rehab. Yeah, you can’t want or… Sorry, you can’t pray those away. So again, all of it goes back to his logical, affordable, simple steps. These primary approaches to restoring a sane, wholesome way of life. It’s really simple, and it’s all in right here, and I adore it. And he truly put within the ebook some examples of unhealthy character traits, dishonesty, entitlement, vanity, manipulation, his jealousy and self-pity. I feel those are more kind of feelings, judgment, aggression, apathy, insecurity, greed, vainness. And who amongst us shouldn’t be going to determine with a few of these, if not all of them, on some degree.

46:10 John S: Yeah.

46:11 Wes B: And then, he does mention right here, as you stated, and he says, “Don’t worry about having a perfect listing, you’ll in all probability add on to it later.”

46:18 John S: Yeah.

46:19 Wes B: So I like that, as a result of it removes the strain, particularly, once once more, if a sponsee is true out of rehab, this is all so new. Simply write what you possibly can, you’ll be able to work on it tomorrow. You’ll be able to maintain adding to it. It doesn’t should be a traumatic… Like whenever you stated, “If you get to some extent of disgrace, cease, set it down, walk away from it.” You possibly can work on these lists over time and there’s really no purpose why you couldn’t hold working this stuff for the remainder of your life, like with the upkeep steps on the end. It’s just a continuous means of, primarily, being an honest individual.

47:00 John S: And when he goes into steps eight and 9, he does speak about direct amends and dwelling amends, which I feel are necessary. And he does speak about how, typically, you shouldn’t make an amend in case you’ve committed violence towards anyone, in the event you’ve executed some really critical emotional injury towards someone, typically the perfect factor to do is to not strategy that individual.

47:22 Wes B: Absolutely. On the subject of amends, I’m a serious proponent of simply the dwelling amends, extra so than anything. I feel that there’s an terrible lot of injury that can be finished once you dig up the past with sure individuals. I feel lots of people are over things. They’re not even enthusiastic about it. You’re serious about it.

47:43 John S: Yeah.

47:44 Wes B: They’re not. However you then go and you set it in their head.

47:48 John S: Yeah, hastily it brings it back.

47:49 Wes B: Proper. And what good does that do?

47:52 John S: It doesn’t. That’s what I dealt with, with my father. He would hate for me to regurgitate crap from the previous. That was not helpful for him, with us, in any respect. The easiest way I might make amends with him was, really, just to vary my behaviors and simply to be an honest individual.

48:06 Wes B: Proper, proper, and when individuals see you doing that, their trust in you and so forth, is slowly restored. Takes time. However he had one thing here that I hate to say, I did disagree with. He stated, “When making amends, if they have particular requests of you, reminiscent of paying again cash or offering a service to make things right, you don’t should reply on the spot. You’ll be able to tell them that you simply’ll get back to them later with a solution.” And I assumed, “What the fuck?” If I’m taking this individual’s time, to say I’m sorry, they usually say, “It is advisable pay me again the $600 you stole.”, I’m not going to inform them, “Let me give it some thought. I’ll get back to you later.” I have to be prepared…

48:48 John S: You ought to be ready, yeah.

48:50 Wes B: Yeah. You completely shouldn’t inform them that you’ll get back to them later. My God, in case you are going into…

48:58 John S: That’s proper. You have to be ready.

49:00 Wes B: You ought to be ready. You ought to be ready to…

49:01 John S: You shouldn’t even be speaking to him for those who’re not ready.

49:03 Wes B: Exactly, precisely.

49:04 John S: Yeah, I agree with that.

49:07 Wes B: Just, “Hey, let me… I’ll get again to you on that.” The individual’s going to go, “What the fuck? See, standard, standard Wes, strolling off without committing to pay back the $600. Standard asshole.” So you must go into every amends ready, absolutely prepared, to provide again or say no matter you should say. And you should be prepared that you simply may get pushback. The individual may, relying in your state of affairs. Fortunately, I’ve never needed to undergo this, but I’ve heard of it, individuals being very indignant and saying, “Get the hell out of right here. I don’t ever need to see you again.” I’ve heard of these conditions. So you must be prepared for those. I want to assume that, if there was any state of affairs like that, I might know.

49:52 John S: Yeah.

49:53 Wes B: I might intuitively know, “I don’t assume I must be digging up the previous with this individual. I don’t assume it’s going to help both of us.” So with regards to amends, once more, I’m an enormous proponent of simply go out and reside an honest life.

50:08 John S: We had a gathering about amends, at We Agnostics, not too long ago, and I keep in mind I stated something on the meeting that, when you’ve got a doubt about making it, simply don’t make it or no matter. And some individuals had a problem with that. But, once more, I feel what the difference was is that, a number of the older individuals who had been consuming for 30-40-50 years or no matter, they could have finished a variety of injury they usually may need had extra amends to probably make. I ended consuming once I was 25. I didn’t really have that many direct amends to make. I actually didn’t do this a lot injury to different individuals.

50:43 Wes B: Right. And some of us, like me, I used to be in complete isolation.

50:47 John S: Yeah, I was too. It’s like…

50:48 Wes B: I’ve buddies, I’ve alcoholic pals, who would do wild, dumb, imply things at bars and in public, and make asses of themselves. However I was so scared that I might make an ass of myself that I simply hid at house, and just fucked up alone. So I definitely did hurt to my family, and people close to me, but I didn’t have the widespread wreckage that some alcoholics have, notably if they’ve been creating this wake of injury for 30 years, They in all probability don’t even keep in mind all the dangerous stuff they’ve achieved. So it’s essential to be actually selective because, again, yeah, you’re excited about it, but the other individual isn’t. They’re in all probability well beyond it. They’re dwelling their own life. They’re past this shit. You convey it up, you’re just bringing them back to a nasty place. Though, for them to listen to an apology, it’s a humble act, so there’s value in that. I did make amends to a few I know, who I did make an ass of myself in front of. They usually’re truly within the AA, in order that they have been completely receptive to it. They usually stated, “Cease by anytime.” They stated, “We respect it and we’re so completely happy you’re in AA too.”

52:11 John S: Yeah. Properly, then simply the final three steps are pretty much the upkeep steps, 10, 11, and 12. The one… And I don’t assume there was anything in 10, he did again say you may do this either formally by writing it out, or it might simply be extra of a, simply being aware of what you’re doing and who you’re harming sort thing. But his step 11 was strictly meditation. It was nothing but meditation.

52:35 Wes B: I observed that.

52:36 John S: So that was fascinating,because I’m not an enormous meditator. I do see some value in it. I assume once I considered step 11, once I was taking a look at these steps alone, I was considering more about, “What am I making an attempt to realize?” Whether or not it’s by way of meditation or another means? And I sort of looked at it as serenity is what I’m making an attempt to realize. So, for me, it might be something together with meditation that brings me to no matter I would like, however he just strictly wrote meditation.

53:02 Wes B: Yeah, I was not a huge fan of that. He says here, “When you’ve never meditated before, this will likely all sound like airy-fairy nonsense and that’s okay. Give it a attempt, and you’ll get to expertise it yourself.” And after that I wrote on the page, “How?” And I do know that meditation, it comes in a whole lot of totally different varieties and there are numerous ways that totally different individuals do it, but I find myself type of once I’m daydreaming, once I’m studying, once I’m painting, there are all types of durations of time in my day where I’m in virtually a meditative state. And meditation, I suppose is whenever you’re type of misplaced in deep thoughts, I know some would say it’s type of the absence of thought is meditating. However meditation is such a, it’s such a wide internet, so far as how it’s utilized and how you do it, and everyone does it kind of in their own approach. There are all types of great assets online if you want to… Guided meditations, I extremely advocate, because the guided meditation will literally say, “Okay, close your eyes, monitor your respiration, really feel every part from your head to your toes. Okay, you’re in a forest. Okay, now you’re walking down a path. Now, you see a river to your proper, can you hear the river?” So the guided meditation, that’s a good way to get into to determine what meditation is about are the guided ones, for these of us who don’t know what meditation really means.

54:38 John S: So principally he’s simply describing this stuff as no matter you do. And then in step 12, you just assist others. And he talks about going to conferences and helping individuals, or appearing as a sponsor to assist individuals. As far as I’m concerned, it doesn’t even need to be within AA. You possibly can assist individuals, simply be a citizen, do something politically, or no matter you need to do in your group to assist, can be a great way of giving back. After which he talked about, and I agree with him that you simply do it for quite a lot of reasons, however one cause you do it, it’s because by, especially should you’re going to sponsor anyone and help them with the steps, whenever you do this, by displaying another person, it reinforces it for your self, you study for yourself.

55:18 Wes B: Absolutely. And that’s one thing that I discovered via educating these school courses is I discovered… Properly, it’s a must to know the material. So if you wish to study one thing, train it.

55:33 John S: Yes, I’ve informed that. I’ve been advised that.

55:35 Wes B: Get prepared to show it, because it’s a must to know the whole lot. As a result of the questions that come at you, you don’t know the place they’re going to return from, and you must have all of your bases coated. So yeah.

55:46 John S: Yeah, I had a instructor who informed me that when. He says he’s discovered more from educating than he did as a scholar.

55:50 Wes B: Oh, completely, absolutely.


55:53 Wes B: Completely. I totally agree with that. I highlighted this portion right here underneath working step 12. He stated, “On the first assembly I attended, one of many greeters was an exceptionally, pleasant, and calming individual to be round. He immediately helped me really feel comfy. Have been it not for him, it’s solely potential I might have shied away from conferences and both delayed my sobriety or not gotten sober at all.” I had the identical experience with Greg H. The first assembly I came to, he was so warm and alluring. And so I attempt to emulate that each time we now have new individuals to the group, if I’m leading, or I suppose even when I’m not leading, just making an attempt to be as heat as attainable. As a result of lots of people will present as much as a gathering they usually’ll make a judgment on that assembly, just based mostly on the tone of the room, and the way snug they feel there. And if they really feel that type of, “We’ll love you till you’re keen on yourself,” type of factor. It’s really helpful and it’s critical shit, as a result of that is life or demise for some individuals.

57:01 John S: It’s funny, however in AA individuals really… That first impression means all the things.

57:04 Wes B: Completely. That first impression… Yeah.

57:05 John S: In the event that they don’t like that first meeting, they’ll never come again.

57:07 Wes B: That’s precisely right, that’s precisely proper. That first impression is every little thing. And boy the teams, the 4 or 5 teams in Kansas Metropolis that I attend variously, there are very totally different tenners to those rooms and really totally different ranges of welcoming.

57:28 John S: Yeah, yup, yup. AA, your expertise with AA is actually dependent upon what meeting you happen to go to on any specific day, because it’s simply… It could actually range from one group to the subsequent. And even within a single group, it will probably differ. However anyway. I don’t know, is there anything you need to speak about from that e-book that we should always cover?

57:45 Wes B: I’ll inform you what, I’m going to learn just a little bit on the, just on the very back of the ebook. I found this really priceless, because this can be a fantastic, concise summary of the guide that might have definitely made me buy this guide, as an atheist. Staying Sober With out God is a guide to, and kind of a plug for the ebook too, okay. Staying Sober With out God is a guide to lasting, genuine recovery from alcoholism, drug habit, and compulsive behaviors. 12-step packages have helped tens of millions of people, but whereas our information of habit has advanced, the packages themselves haven’t. So, that’s referring again to the stuff that’s nonetheless caught in 1939. Right now, we’ve got a more thorough understanding of the way to bring about lasting recovery without the necessity to consider in God or a supernatural being. This guide is meant to provide atheists, agnostics, and non-believers a information to recovery that’s grounded in rational thought and sensible action.

58:42 John S: Yeah.

58:43 Wes B: And I really like that.

58:44 John S: Yeah.

58:45 Wes B: That’s exactly what the e-book is about, rational thought and sensible motion.

58:50 John S: Yeah.

58:51 Wes B: That’s what we implement, proper?

58:53 John S: Yep, that’s what it’s about, so far as I’m involved.

58:55 Wes B: Yeah, nicely… And it is, such as you stated, it’s what, as atheists, once we strategy six and 7, we do it better…

59:03 John S: Yeah, it really is practical and we do the work. So…

59:06 Wes B: Because we’re not just asking for some fairy to take our issues away.


59:14 John S: Properly, Wes, thank you very a lot once once more, I recognize it.

59:15 Wes B: You bought it, buddy.

59:16 John S: It’s been enjoyable talking to you.

59:17 Wes B: Been enjoyable talking to you.

59:18 John S: Thanks.

59:19 Wes B: Thanks. Thanks, John.


59:26 John S: Thank you for listening to AA Past Belief. Staying Sober With out God: The Practical 12 Steps to Long-Term Restoration from Alcoholism & Addictions, by Jeffrey Munn is out there at Amazon in each paperback and Kindle versions. Please visit to learn the newest assessment of the ebook. And as soon as again, thanks so much for all of your help here at AA Beyond Belief, we respect it.

Read the Ebook Assessment at AA Agnostica

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